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Tuesday, October 02, 2007

Holocaust and freedom


Dear Ashraf, Many thanks for your answers and the discussion. You know, many people in Sweden wants to listen to Muslims discussing these matters in proper language. But it is also so than many Swedes mean that the Muslims are not capable of handling a discussion but will just come up with f-words and threats. I believe that things can be much better when we use debate and other democratic means. Yesterday 200 young Muslims made a demonstration in a Swedish city asking for their rights not to be insulted. I think that is good. Bring it out, make the different opinions clear and see what can be done. Here is my answers to your letter:

"You can make caricatures of Bush, Israel, Jesus, Jewish religion but not on Islam."
What do you mean by "YOU" ? No man, i can't make a cricature of Jesus or Jewish religion, we respect all prophets, and such drawings are completely forbidden in Islam.

You are right. This “you” means only certain regions and in most part ofthe western world.

"In Sweden there is no law against blasphemy but still we have a problem."

Your problem with blasphemy is completely yours, our religion must not be involved, i don't have to pee on your grave to solve my problem with freedom in my country, or you'll let me do this with a friendly smile? do you ?

Well, here we have a problem as we have Islam and Muslims in Sweden and many other countries where blasphemy is allowed. Here we can criticize and question religions. Why should there be an exception for Islam? For atheists it is natural to question all forms of religion saying that this is nothing but superstition. That must be possible according to our point of view. It is different with peeing on a specific person’s grave. To do that you need some very special reason. A grave and a buried person is not holy but a private affair.



"Religion is private and should be totally separated from politics"
how come? drawing our prophet as a dog and still want this matter to be separated from politics ? you insulted NATIONS not only a person, and who gave you the right to insult religions? your unlimited freedom?


The thing is of course that religion should not influence political decisions. It is not needed to go to the Koran to find a motivation for a law. The Koran is holy only for private purposes. The right to insult religions come from freedom of expression. Now we have a long tradition of criticising Christianity. A couple of years ago an exhibition with photos by an artist were shown in a Swedish cathedral. The photos showed Jesus as a homosexual surrounded by transvestites and bondage people. The exhibition was supported by the Arch Bishop. There were many reactions but the general opinion was in favour of it.



ok
your "Conceptual" artpiece is nothing to make me feel down :) and if you really want to creat an "artpiece" send me a cartoon by you about holocaust . do you dare ? can you say that Holocaust is a very big lie ?


In many countries you can publish material saying that the holocaust is a lie. But it will be a strange message as we have so many facts about what was going on in Germany. We consider it a fact the millions of Jews were killed. So, if you make a cartoon denying the holocaust you must have something to come up with. A reasonable doubt.

A religion is not a fact. The prophet being holy is not a fact but an opinion among believers.


Do it Mr. Lars at least to show us that you are really believe in freedom of expression you are talking about , that's my only demand from you.

and i'm the one who asking you this time: IS IT POSSIBLE ? ;)


I can do that, but it will not have any effect. If I am doing it only to prove it can be done then it will be too easy to understand the purpose. What I cannot do is to make some cartoons doubting the holocaust where I at the same time should believe that it didn’t take place. Because it, as I said, is a fact.
Best wishes Lars

32 comments:

اسكندراني اوي said...

really ashraf it will end in no where... they are programmed to do loooooooong desiccations to lead to nothing
but for sure thx so for ur time and efforts u r doing

regards

ياسر حسين said...

حوار شيق .. لكن غريب
الجدع ده بيعتقد إن الهوليكوست .. حرق اليهود في أفران هتلر .. حقيقة وإنه لا يستطيع إنكارها بالكاريكاتير بتاعه
بينما الانبياء ليسوا حقيقة إلا بالنسبة للذين يؤمنون بهم ومن يتبعوهم ..علشان كده الشملول مش هيقدر يرسم كاريكاتير عن الهوليكوست لأنه مش هيجيب نتيجة..
بس فالح يلبخ في الاسلام والرسول
حقيقي يا أشرف الشخص ده مش سهل
وبيتبع أسلوب الصهاينة وفي الآخر هتلاقيه بيقول لك إحنا ولاد عم
وولاد مهنة واحدة ومش لازم نعض في بعض
كن حذر يا صديقي
ويا ريت تنشر ترجمة للحوار ده مش كل رواد مدونتك ليهم في الترجمة
:)
خالص تحياتي الفنية

--==// Devilish -_- Eyes \\==-- said...

hey ashraf ,, i just want to tell u ,, great work man , keep on moving ,, and stop talkin to that lars cuz all in vain , he wont change his mind ,, i've seen u in the television with mr hussien fahmy ;) cool ya man

vinterbadaren said...

Suck my dick your fucking moeslim!

Allotetraploid said...

Ashraf!
The matter is very simple, for all non Muslims Mohamed is a fraud and Islam is a bad joke. For Muslims all other religions are fraud and their followers are thus called Kaafir in the Quran. Jews are labeled as “apes and pigs” and heathens are named “fools”. Christians and Jews are to convert or pay a special tax lest they be killed. A heathen is not given the tax option but is to convert or be put to the sword. Somehow I cannot see that the Muslim position is spoken from a higher moral ground when it demands respect from the Kaafir. If the tenants of the Islamic credo are to be accepted as an exercise of human freedom in matters of religion, then the rejection of that same credo must also be a valid exercise of that same freedom. To depict Mohamed as a dog is in no way different than to depict a non Muslim as a Kaafir or a Jew as a dog or monkey. Consequently, if we are to forbid Vilks’s drawings we must also forbid the Quran, for both are guilty of the same “crime”; to insult other people’s convictions.
When it comes to making scorn of the holocaust your own county made an infamous contribution when airing the scandalous mini-series “Horse Without a Horseman”, or take the recent exhibition “Holocaust Caricatures Contest” in Teheran. There is simply no taboo to break there, other than refraining from comparing all and every criticism of Islam to the anti-Semitic policies of Nazi Germany. A policy that found an enthusiastic supporter in the grand mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husayni.

تامر حسين said...

الاخ العزيز اشرف حمدي الحقيقه انا قريت التلت او الاربع مقالات الي فاتو والاخيره كمان بس بردو مهما كان ده شخص متخلف وبيحاول يبين ان وجهه نظره هي الصح
بس كان ليه تعليق
انا تعبت اوي من ترجمه كل الايميلات دي
واستمر في رسمك بجد انا عجبني اوي منظره وهو علي شكل كلب جربان اويييي
تحياتي

Mirage said...

انا اكتر حاجة بتعجبنى فيك انك منطقى وافكارك مترتبة دايما ومتجهة نحو الهدف مباشرة

وشفت حلقة الناس وانا امبارح بتاعة التدوين

وكنت متألق على فكرة

بس ياريت لو تقدر تحطها على البوج زى حلقة OTV كده

أشرف حمدي said...

أشكرك جميعا بجد علي دعمكم من خلال تعليقاتكم ومتابعتكم للمدونة
أنا فعلا قرفت من أم الراجل ده .. وأكتر من واحد بثق في رأيه نصحني بتجاهله لأن المناقشة معاه بلا جدوي فعلا

الراجل فعلا ماعندوش اي منطق سليم ممكن يقنع عيل صغير
ولما سألته تقدر ترسم عن الهولوكوست وتنكر وجوده ؟ قال لي آه ممكن، بس الهولوكوست حقيقة تاريخية لا شك فيها انما النبي بتاعكم لا يوجد ما يثبت صدقه !!!
بزمتكم ده اسمه رد منطقي ؟

المهم انه كان لازم اتناقش معاه عشان الناس تفهم هو بيفكر ازاي .. هو تقريبا ما بيفكرش :)

كفاية بقى ضعيت وقتكم مع الرخم ده :) ان شاء الله تدوينات جديدة قريبا جدا
تحياتي

one said...

الفنان أشرف
مش ملاحظ أنك أديت للحيوان ده أكتر من حقه وضيعت وقتك ووقتنا مع شخص تافه وفى الاخر معرفتش تقنعه بوجهة نظرك
أنا شفت برنامج الناس وأنا
وأستغربت ازاى يستضيفوك أنت والناس المحترمة اللى كانت معاك عشان كل واحد يقول أسمه وسلامو عليكو وعليكم السلام
دول بينوا المدونات دى انها تقليعة هبلة طالع فيها الشباب
الحمدلله أنا مدونتى فاضيه
ومش مستعد اطلع فى برامج الناس تضحك عليا بعدها
سلام

أشرف حمدي said...

one
ايه يا مان .. مش ملاحظ ان كلامك جارح ؟ :) علي رأي القرموطي

أولا بالنسبة للأخ لارس أقولك لأ طبعا .. انا ماضيعتش وقتي .. أنا عارف انا بعمل ايه وراضي عنه تماما
طظ في انه يقتنع برأيي او ما يقتنعش .. أنا ببحث عن المعرفة .. يا ترى واحد زي دعه بيفكر ازاي .. ده المهم .. وأعتقد ان الناس كلها دلوقتي عرفت كتير عن أسلوب تفكر الناس دي .

مش عاف شكلك بتتريق عليا .. والله مش ذنبي اللي حصل في البرنامج .. ده مش معناه اننا بقينا أضحوكة .. الأضحوكة هم المعدين بتوع البرنامج مش احنا
راجع مدونة وينكي

تحياتي يا صاحب المدونة الفاضية :)
مش بتريق والله
ههههههههه

Anders Gardebring said...

I see that allotetraploid has received no response, although what he says is very true indeed.
The muslim religion does not respect non muslims. So why should non muslims respect the muslim religion?
What gives a religion the right to be exempt from criticism?

وينكى said...

انا بصراحه قريت اول جملتين وزهقت
الحوار معاه مش جايب نتيجه
ربنا يسهله يروح يعك بعيد عننا بقى

Darsh said...

Allotetraploid,
You would read this comment if you come again. Can you tell me how Christianity prevailed in Scandinavia?
Whatever is you answer , I respect all religions including Christianity.

أشرف

يا ريت تطلب من لارس إنه يرسم كاركاتير يتريق على قمع الحكومة السويدية للصحفيين اللي بينكروا الهولوكوست أو بيهينوا العائلة المالكة السويدية " آدام الله ظلها على الشعب السويدي " ديه فيها سجن و غرامة زي اللي حصل هنا لابراهيم عيسى ، إحنا عاوزين نعمل هنا في مصر يوم للتضامن مع الصحفيين السويديين اللي بيعانوا من تعسف الحكومة و نجمعلهم تبرعات و نوكلهم محامين ربنا يفك زنقتهم آمين !

abo salah said...

بعد السلام عليكم

أزيك يافنان عامل أيه .. معلش أنا عارف أنى مقصر معاك

وأيه حكاية الراجل ده .. هو عايز يضرب معاك زمالة ولا أيه

ياعم ده راجل دماغه مقفلة .. وعلي رأي الفنان ياسر حسين خد بالك لحسن يقولك احنا ولاد عم

كان نفسى أقولك اكسب فيه ثواب وعرفه شوية عن الاسلام .. بس هل هيجدى معاه؟

علي فكرة
أنا برضه كان في معركة صغيرة كده علي مدونتي .. بس معركة من زاوية تانية
ولو فضيت يافنان ابقي شوفها و قولي رأيك

ومبروك ياباشا على حلقة الناس و أنا

تحياتي
وكل سنة وأنت طيب

Anders Gardebring said...

darsh, I think you might find this article helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Scandinavia

Allotetraploid said...

Darsh!

You ask me how Christianity came to prevail in Scandinavia. Well, that’s a complex question since we are talking about the successive spread of a religion over hundreds of years in an area that today encompasses five independent nations, as well as the Faroe Islands. Christianity was introduced with brute force in Finland when my own country Sweden launched crusades, where people were offered to convert or being beheaded. In Norway and Sweden as well as Denmark Christianity was partly expanded by holy war and partly by converting kings and clan leaders, whose subjects were obliged to take on whatever religion their leader adopted. In the aftermath Christianity was maintained by laws that prohibited all conversion and religious instruction and education were monopolized by the church. It has in all been the long history of repression, tyranny and cruelty that made Christianity to prevail in my country, and the same goes for Islam and Egypt, first it was a Christian nation by decree of the emperor in Byzantium, then it became a Muslim country due to the invasion of Egypt 639ce.
As for religions in general I tolerate them but I don’t respect them. They are all founded on superstition and bigotry, which has proven itself most harmful to truth and compassion. Though I like the candy at the end of Ramadan!

My Hope$ said...

سلام عليكم
بص هو الموضوع هيفضل يوسع
زي ما هو انبهر برسوماتك انت وعبد الرحمن
لازم نعرفة يعني اية مسلمين ويعني اية اسلام
طالما هو جاهل ومش لاقي حاجة يتشهر بيها
ورسمة كمان وحش
وانسان مستفز
سلام
مني

Darsh said...

Allotetraploid !
All what you said are facts mentioned by your nations. But what you said about Egypt & Islam is said by Egyptians or Scandinavians?
This rises question about who write history .. It is written by locals or foreigners?
When I asked you about Scandinavia & Christianity I didn't claim anything. Not to be accused of being biased against Christianity.
So, who write Egypt's history are Egyptians. Did you read what Egyptians wrote about Egypt & Islam?
If all discussion did rise because what Lars Vilks , I see him a real ridiculous person. Because it is easy to make sarcasm of Martians they are far. You don't meet them everywhere on Earth. So I am free to say that they are asshole and I can't be jailed.
If he wants really to test freedom of speech, why he didn't draw the Swedish king as a pig? Because he will be jailed for sure ! Swedish king is a reality and he has authority and can jail him. But Muslims are weak and with no authority so he can say whatever he wants about them.

عمرو فكرى said...

ربنا معاك

عمرو فكرى said...

يا جماعة دول فى قمة الانحطاط

المسمى viterbadaren ده قمة فى قلة الادب
ادخل المدونة بتاعته وانت تلاقيه عاملها مخصووووووووووووص للهجوم على الاسلام !!!!

والمدعو لارس فيلكز حط الصورة اللى استاذ اشرف رسمها وزود عليها الرسمة اللى هو شخصيا رسمها تحت القلم المرخة اياه وقال انه عمل اللى اشرف مستحيل يعمله وكتب ان هما الاتنين زى بعض !!!!
Ashraf Hamdi and Lars Vilks – together.


Den egyptiske karikatyrtecknaren Ashraf Hamdi är en av mina absoluta favoriter.
(The Egyptian cartoonist Ashraf Hamdi is one of my absolute favourites.)
Jag har åstadkommit ett litet samarbetsprojekt där jag tillagt en detalj som han inte på några villkor kan ha med i sin bild.
(I have made a small collaboration project where I have added a detail which is impossible for him to draw in his picture.)

عمرو فكرى said...

اسف ع التطويل بس اصلى كل شوية بكتشف حاجات جدبدة
المدونة بتاعة الشخص السابق ذكره فيها كمية لينكات لكمية مواقع .... مش قادر اوصفها بجد
كلها بتهاجم الاسلام فقط
مش عارف احنا ليه الاداة الاعلامية بتاعتنا ضعيفة للدرجة دى؟

simple girl.. ..simple dream said...

رغم كل الزعيق والشجب والمظاهرات اللى تلت الكاريكاتور فانت الوحيد اللى فعلا عمل حاجة واخد موقف

شكرا اشرف حمدى




ياريت تنورنى فى مدونتى الجديدة المتواضعة وتقولى رأيك

Darsh said...

BBC One controller Peter Fincham has resigned after an investigation into footage that misrepresented the Queen.

A documentary trailer was edited out of sequence, and Mr Fincham wrongly told the press it showed the monarch walking out of a photo session "in a huff".

Read on BBC website :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7029940.stm

God Bless Ibrahim Issa & Egyptian journalists who fight for the real freedom of speech.

Anders Gardebring said...

Darsh. You seem to be unable to grasp that Sweden is a democracy with free speech. That means that yes, you can in fact depict the Swedish king as a pig if you like. (or the prime minister, political party leaders, prophets and so on).
You will NOT go to jail for that.
The concept of true free speech includes the right to do things that will offend other people. If you couldn't, it would not be free speech. And, isn't your comment a bit odd?
I mean, Ashraf did depict Lars Vilks as a dog, which in muslim religion is a big insult (of course in Sweden it doesn't work as all since dogs are not seen as "unclean" in our cultural tradition). So what you are basicly saying is that it is okay to depict "common" people in a degrading way, but not the king?
Why should that be so?
In my world view all humans are equal. It doesn't matter which religion you have, where you are from, what language you speak or what profession or position of power you might hold.

لماضة said...

والله يا عم اشرف انت قادر
هههههه
بجد انا برفع القبعه وبصقفلك بايدى ورجلى
الله ينور

Anders Gardebring said...

Ashraf, you asked if it is possible to publish material denying the holocaust in Sweden.
Yes. It is legal and therefore possible. Some countries in Europe have laws forbidding this, but Sweden is not one of them (and that's a good thing. Falsification of history should be battled in the open, not censored).
Of course, no logically reasoning person would actually deny the existence of the concentration camps, the amount of evidence is huge.
I find that somewhat interesting in fact. People that deny the holocaust, in spite of stockpiles of evidence, still believe in a god, despite a complete lack of actual evidence.

Darsh said...

Anders Gardebring!
You didn't read my comment well, or you just scroll it in a hurry !

"You seem to be unable to grasp that Sweden."
Tell me when did I say that? If you mean what I said about depicting the swedish king , I said that because swedish king is a real authority to challenge not Muhammed " Dead man " or Muslims " weak minority " so both of them don't have authority or power to punish Lars for what he did. So, I consider this such a prosecution to a weak minority like Muslims in Sweden. But anyway , I appreciate the freedom of speech in Sweden and this is a freedom to be envied.However, I don't see what Lars did can be considered " freedom of speech " because he offended weak minority.

" The concept of true free speech includes the right to do things that will offend other people. If you couldn't, it would not be free speech. And, isn't your comment a bit odd? "

I didn't object " Offending " others. But you may fear offending powers & authorities because they can punish you as It happened to Peter Fincham of BBC. It was just a " comment " The result was he lost his job and he was forced to resign. Can Lars test the freedom of speech with Swedish king? Maybe he does that in his next wonderful artwork ! We wait to learn the courage of facing authorities from Lars Vilks !

" So what you are basicaly saying is that it is okay to depict "common" people in a degrading way, but not the king? "

Roll up to my comment you will find that I didn't say anything related to this part.

Allotetraploid said...

Daesh.
It doesn’t matter who writes what. What matter is if the thing written is true or untrue. There are many good Muslim historians such as Shiraz Maher, an ex member of Hizb ut-Tahrir. But he is not good because he is a Muslim writing about the history about Islam. He is good because he cares about the truth regardless of his own preconceptions. Historical truth is only attained when the person doing the research lacks vested interest in the subject or can distance himself from such interest. On the other hand, if you want propaganda, a zealous Muslim nationalist is probably the man you seek. And yes, for what it’s worth, I have read some older Islamic works on history.
The Swedish king has no political authority and is frequently made fun of since a popular notion is that he’s a little behind. There are no laws against mocking people in authority here, on the contrary, people with power are those frequently mocked and scorned. As for muslins being far away, that’s a preposterous notion. There are nearly half a million Muslim emigrants, converts and refugees in Sweden. It’s walking distance between me and the assembly house for the local Muslim brotherhood, and if I steep on the train it will only take fifteen minutes to come to the nearest mosque. One of my colleagues is Muslim (Iranian) and my local seller is as well. So no, not on Mars but in my block.

Anders Gardebring said...

Darsh also said:
"Swedish king is a reality and he has authority and can jail him".
Well. No. Even if depicting the king as a pig was illegal (which it is not) he would not have the authority to do that.
Only the courts and the legal system has the authority to jail anyone (or pass any kind of legal punishment for that matter).
In fact, the role of the king in Sweden is purely ceremonial and he doesn't hold any actual power anymore. General elections every 4:th year decides who will be in power for the next term.

Darsh said...

Why Peter Fincham lost his job??
Is there really freedom of speech to make offensive caricatures of European monarchies?
All what you said seems unproved since Peter Fincham lost his job because of a comment. What would happen if he made a caricature??!!
And what a caricature ! The mighty British queen as a big !
Then prove me what all you said is true.
I want to see the Swedish king's head on pig's body in a Swedish paper.
Otherwise, what Lars did can't be called by any concept " Freedom of speech ".

Allotetraploid

You say that Muslims are half million that's OK but out of how many swedes? They are still minority and minorities can be easily persecuted by disrespect to what they consider a sacred person like prophets.

What you said about " thinkers or writers " that I " should " seek , they are little but they are free to say whatever they want. But I have others too and these others are the majority of Muslims. Why you took anti-Islam thinker as example of Islam and you didn't take the pro-Islam thinkers? Because you are biased !
Why you didn't take Mohamed Emara , Amr Khaled , Hessen Heikal , Khaled ElGendy or our Mufti Ali Gommaa?
Why you excluded all of them?
Because you are biased.

And to end this discussion, I just want to see the Swedish king's head on a pig's body in a Swedish paper. This is the only thing that will make me believe ALL what you said on this blog.
Show me even a previous caricature of the king.
I just want a clue.
Without clues, I think all discussions in the world worth nothing!

Anders Gardebring said...

darsh!
I can do better than a newspaper.
How about making fun of the king , queen and princess in a comedy program broadcasted on Swedens largest television channel on primetime?
Here goes:

http://player.tv4.se/webtv/tv4/showContent.do?treeId=300231&progId=86020
http://player.tv4.se/webtv/tv4/showContent.do?treeId=300231&progId=86021

This one will probably not make much sense if you dont know Swedish but still:
http://player.tv4.se/webtv/tv4/showContent.do?treeId=300231&progId=76946

Whether it's a good program I leave out of the discussion, just try to prove a point here.
Making fun of authorities will not get you jailed or fired in Sweden.

This is a carricature of our current prime minister Fredrik Reinfeldt:
http://breitholtz.blogg.se/images/reinfteckningc_1141061823.jpg

Please, can we put the question whether you can make fun of public figures in Sweden or not aside now?

Darsh said...

Anders Gardebring

My request was clear! If what Lars did can be called " Freedom of speech " then I want to see this application on the Swedish monarchy ! I want to see the queen's head on a pig's body in a Swedish paper. Is it an impossible request?
If it is impossible, then tell me that you persecute Muslims and this discussion will be over.
These funny shows can be made in any country that you call " not free ". For example , our papers publish fabricated pictures of many characters in the ruling party (including prime minister) as clowns or thieves but we never claim that is a complete freedom of speech because they didn't do that with the figure number one in the state.
We never claimed to be a free nation or said big words like " freedom of speech " so we want to see a free and powerful nation like Sweden practicing real freedom of speech like depicting the Swedish queen as a pig and publish that in a Swedish paper and get complete protection from authorities and I hope that brave journalist won't face Peter Fincham's fate.

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